We come to faith as babes, learning basic elements of Truth. There is more, much more. Let us not be lazy, but allow ourselves to be made mature in Him. Seeing that the Priest who stands for us is of a great and unsearchable order. We can never learn too much about Him. (Hebrews 5:11-6:9)

Speaker(s): Thomas Schaller
Sermon 13047
Date: 2025-12-21
Time: Sun 11:00 am

 

P. Schaller –

Okay, you may be seated. Let’s have a prayer together. (Prayer). We’ve been teaching the book of Hebrews in this
Christmas season and we are now in the end of chapter 5. Hebrews 5. P. Mark Miniciello last
Sunday night taught on Hebrews 5. And it was very good. And we are doing this because the
Messiah came Christmas season. We celebrate it. It’s probably one of the, well, it is the greatest
holiday. Christmas or Christian holiday in the year. The resurrection on Easter is the other one.
And we celebrate the fact that God came here. Sometimes I’m in unbelief about it. It’s so
astounding. But the Scripture is packed.

There’s so much Scripture about the Incarnation. And when we read the book of Hebrews, the
writer is talking to Jewish people who live in Jerusalem who have a temple and a priesthood
and animal sacrifices. And the writer is saying because of Christ, this is actually passing away.
We don’t need it anymore. We don’t need the Aaronic, you know, Aaron. Aaron is the Levite
priest. We don’t need that priesthood anymore. It was very limited because they were only
men that lived and died. Lived and died. Their son took over. Then he died and his son took
over and he died. And they never sat down. They didn’t finish the work. It was always more
blood, more sacrifice, more temple service with a temple on the earth.

But the writer to the Hebrews is saying, Oh, no. That’s fine. That was teaching us about
atonement and redemption. Learning about service and holiness and defilement. Do you
remember about Jewish defilement? Do you know that a Jew walking in a cemetery would be
unclean? A Jew picking up a dead animal would be unclean. A woman who just gave birth to a
baby would be unclean. A man touching blood is unclean. Well, all of this is superseded.

Hold it. We have a picture. Turn to your neighbor and say, I’m so excited! We’ve got a picture!
We’ve got a picture. Okay. Here is the picture of a natural man who lives in his world naturally.
And this is how most people live. Our understanding is so little. Limited. We see things. We feel
things. We eat and sleep and work. Get a paycheck. Have a vacation. Live long. Eventually, get
sick and die. We live our life.

But the Bible tells us about a world that we can’t see. We can draw it this way. It’s a world we
can’t see. And there’s a word I like that I just rediscovered. It’s super spatial. It’s by Eric Sauer, a
theologian from years ago. He just used that word for beyond the universe. Heaven. The third
heaven. We haven’t been there yet. Paul visited, 2 Corinthians 12. He went to the third heaven.
One of the reasons why this teaching is so deep and his understanding so deep is because the
super spatial world was a reality to the Apostle Paul. He believed in what you couldn’t, we can’t
see. He writes about it. He tells us about the fullness that we have, the pleroma in the Greek,
the fullness of Christ in Ephesians 4:13. He writes about the unsearchable riches of Christ. I love that
phrase, unsearchable.

You know, there are things you cannot find, like a ship that went down in the Indian Ocean
packed with gold in the 16 th century in a hurricane. And technology of the day is trying to find
that treasure, which is like in the billons of dollars, but they haven’t found it.

There are things that you and I are looking for that can’t be found by nature but they can be
found by faith in Christ. Paul said that this riches – he said, thank God for the unspeakable gift
of God. That’s another phrase. It’s unspeakable. We are with stammering lips trying to explain
the things that we haven’t seen and relate to God who is in a sense very far away. He’s in the
right hand of God seated in heaven and we are in his company. The book of Hebrews says we
are part of his group. We are in fellowship with God. We have the Spirit of God.

Listen to this, 1 John 2:20. “You have no need that a man teach you. For you have an anointing
and the anointing teaches you and teaches you all things” (1 John 2:20). There it is. You have an
anointing from the Holy One. You know all things. And then vs. 27 is another one. 1 John 2:27.
What is another word for “anointing.” It’s the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit you have and you
know all things.

And the writer to the Hebrews is concerned. He’s concerned that though they should know
these things, they have drawn back. We could say this way. You have a natural person and then
they become a religious person. Their world gets a little bit bigger. They become a Jew or a
Christian. They get a little more knowledge. They have a little bit, we might say, they learned
the ABC’s of the Christian life. They knew about things. We have a list of those words that we’ll
put up in a minute that are from this text. So, here is the point. And I don’t want to go too fast,
but the message today, what we’re going to read is this.

Move on. Move on. Go beyond. Go beyond the ABC’s. Go beyond just like casually reading your
Bible every once in a while. Go beyond just I believe in God. I believe in God. Yes, you, we know
that. I mean, we have this, but we have the ceiling you could call it. We hit the ceiling and that’s
enough.

You know, in school I hit the ceiling in learning Spanish and that was it. But I’ve had it in my
mind to get back at it. But I’m lazy. Let’s put down the word “lazy.” Lazy. As a Christian, I
learned some things as a Christian. But then, do I have anything in my heart that brings me
beyond or am I just satisfied with some knowledge?

Have you ever met somebody that you are ministering to and they say, Yeah, I’ve read the
Bible. I read the Bible and the sound of it is I read the Bible. I did it. I’m done. You know, I did
my duty. I finished.

But is the Bible in your heart? Does it, has it touched your heart? Is the anointing of God
teaching us? Is the Spirit of God leading us beyond like to actually be in fellowship with the
living God?
So, I want to, I want you to read with me here 5:11. He’s talking about Melchizedek, the high
priest. Actually, the order of Melchizedek, that kind of priest that has no birthday and no
gravestone. You know how the gravestone is 1952 is the year you were born in and the day and
then a dash and the day you died. But your life is really the dash, what’s between, right? Well,
Melchizedek didn’t have a beginning and he didn’t have an end in the Scripture. He’s a picture
of Christ. Maybe he was Christ in Genesis 14 but he’s a high priest. He’s not Aaron. He’s of a
different order.

And the writer to the Hebrews is saying, I have much to say about Melchizedek, but I can’t say it
because you’re dull of hearing. You can’t hear me. You have no interest in it. You hit the ceiling.
You’re lazy. You’re indifferent. You don’t care. But I have so much to say. If you would be
interested or if your heart was open, if you were trusting God, he would fill you with the Spirit
and you’d be a good listener and it would draw out, it would draw from God understanding of
Melchizedek or the understanding of Christ who’s at the right hand of God.

We would speak about Christ all day long if you could listen but you can’t. This is what he’s
saying to them. You can’t hear me. I’ve been in those kind of churches through the years. In
Poland, I remember they were like wooden statues. I preached in a church there. Doesn’t
matter what kind it was, but just I mean they were, that was – but I’ve been in other places.

They can’t hear. Even in our own church, they can’t hear. Because if the pulpit is this way, it’s
just like making sound like [indistinct], then are you going to listen to that? You can’t hear.
I become dull in hearing. I’ve already heard it. I already know about that. I’m not interested in
that. There’s no life here. There’s no power. There’s no anointing. There’s no fellowship.
There’s no worship. Have you been in a church where the worship service is dull and dead?
There’s no worship. People are out to lunch. They’re not engaged. They don’t care. They hit a
ceiling.

What do you – what’s your problem? I already read the Bible. What’s your problem? I’m in
church, aren’t I? What’s your problem? Don’t judge me. And all of those kind of things. We
understand them.

But there’s something good here to learn. That’s where I want to bring you. Let’s read it.
Chapter 5:11. Have you see that when they, when the naturalist is in the forest hunting a tiger
or something and they shoot it with a dart. The drug goes into the bloodstream of the animal
and then it falls out of the tree and they tag it and do what they do. That dullness is from a
drug. And that word is the same word here for getting numb.

Like you get dull. You’re numb. You numb up in your hearing. You can’t hear God. You don’t
hear what the Word is saying. You’re not able to be active. You are indifferent or passive. And
I’m saying it to me, to all of us. Been there. Understand it. And I believe that’s a very real thing.
But that’s where revival when there’s prayer, when their worship is from the heart, when we
have some skin in the game, when I decide to believe God and trust him, then it lights it up. The
Spirit, the anointing of God is on the move.

Now, these people he is saying they should be teachers but they have to learn it again, vs. 12.
You ought to be teachers. Enough time has passed. You’ve learned enough. But they’ve drawn
back. They ought to be teachers but they become dull in hearing and very loose.

I have a paragraph here about laziness. I don’t think I’ll read it right now. It’s not that edifying.
We’ll go back. We’ll get to it later. But I got to vs. 12. Okay. You ought to be teachers. You have
need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God.

You need to learn it again. The first principles. Listen. You know what ministers to me when I
get hurt or discouraged or empty and guilty maybe or something? I read about Abraham. And
one of the things about Abraham I like is the long life and there’s no – he’s not upset about
anything. Basically, he’s walking with God over a long period of time and there’s nothing there.
He’s got a camel maybe. You know, he has nothing. There’s nothing there. He doesn’t even
have the land and he doesn’t have a son. Like there’s nothing there but there is God with him.
God is with him.

You can say that to yourself. I don’t have much going on in my life, but I’ve got God. He’s with
me and he loves me. I don’t have much, but I got God. God is for me, not against me. I got God.
Well, did you get this done or that done or this or that or this way or that? It’s like, I don’t
know. I’m just following Abraham. All he had was faith.
He had nothing. He had a desert with nothing. But he had God and he had a promise. He had
God and he lived by faith. That’s like us. And that’s like a first principle of the oracles of God. It’s
faith in God. But you have need of milk, not of strong meat.

Let’s take that for a second. You need milk. Babies need milk. Young boys, teenagers, they need
milk. Drink your milk. Milk is a good food. With a baby, it’s about every hour and a half, two
hours, they eat it. It goes through them pretty fast. Got to change their diapers and feed them
again and feed them again and feed them again. And that’s how they live. They can’t do much.
They can’t open a door. They can’t turn on a – they can’t do this. They can’t move around
much. They don’t walk. They’re not talking yet. They don’t do much. But that’s an important
period.

But you can’t be 40 years old and be a baby. You have to mature and you have to start eating
solid meat, solid foods sometimes so that you eat every four hours or five or six hours or one
half of a day you don’t yet. You’re not eating but you are maturing and growing up.
But there are Christians that are living like in this first two boxes. They were unbelievers. They
became believers but they are unskillful in the word of righteousness. What does it say? Let’s
go to this one. They are unskillful.

Let’s read chapter 5:13. Words. They’re not skillful in words. What words? Words from the
Bible. Words of faith. Words of righteousness. What words? Well, for example, Jesus comes and
he speaks to the disciples and he teaches them. What did he teach? What are some of the
teachings that Jesus gave? How many could we write down? What words of righteousness that
came from Jesus Christ do I have that I’m skillful with them? I use them.

I use these words. I live by the parables. I live by the stories. I live by the Sermon on the Mt. I
learned about prayer. But what does it mean? It means that I’m using it. Now you might say,
what? Give me some examples of like using, well, using tools.

Like I’m a guy that likes to use tools. I like hand tools. Saws and drills and those kind of things. I
like that stuff. I like to do something like to use with my hands. I like it. When I was young, I
wasn’t good at – I’m not good at it now, but I like it. I am enjoying it. And a machine. If you
show me a machine and teach me something about how to use it, I would use it and enjoy it.
Driving a big machine or something like that or using – okay.

I’ve had it in my own life. I’ve sat in a big room with people I don’t know them. I’m sitting there
at a party or something and I don’t know anybody there and I feel awkward or self-conscious.
But I stay there with God. I listen to God or I fellowship with God. And we’ll see if I have an
opportunity to talk to somebody or minister to somebody.

But some people would be so uncomfortable they would leave. They’re not skillful in that social
awkwardness. But you can be. But you might hit a ceiling and say, I’m done. I’m not, I’m not
here. Intellectually and physically.
Weight lifters, why do they get big and bulky? Why do the weight lifters, body building, they
are, they become skillful in what they’re doing. They learn about it. They are exercised in it and
they increase. You can increase in a spiritual way. Your life can increase spiritually by using it, by
making a decision. I’m living by faith. I’m learning by faith. I’m learning it. It’s written there.
Let’s read chapter 5:13. No, not to belabor it, but a babe, precious little child, beautiful, needs
protection and care.

But the writer is saying, Hey guys, you live in Jerusalem and there’s an antichrist spirit in
Jerusalem. They are against the Christians. Hey guys, you better beef up. You better draw near.
You better learn your faith. You better become skillful. You better mature You better embrace
this with your heart and not bail out. And that’s where this is going in the epistle that people
are bailing out because that ceiling that they hit is not enough for their trials. It’s not enough for
the trouble that they’re going to face in their lives.

Look at vs. 14. Now, when I say strong meat, it’s solid food. But now in a metaphor, the solid
food is simply any doctrine that I’m embracing in my life. I’m believing it. I’m embracing it and
I’m obeying it. I’m taking it and I’m living with this. That becomes strong meat. That becomes
strong meat. I face opposition but I’m embracing the doctrines. I’m skillful in using it and I have
my senses exercised. I’m exercised in my senses.

Look at vs. 14. Now, here comes by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good
and evil. Now, it looks like here’s what happens in your life. Good and evil get mixed up like
this. I don’t know. They get mixed up in life. Good and evil is mixed up. Is this good?
I’m not sure. Is it evil? I don’t know that. Is it good? Is it evil? I don’t know. And you can read it. I
just read, I read some Charles Krauthammer who I like his editorials. He’s gone now, but he’s a
political commentator from the past, you know, 10, 20 years ago and more.

But I like his editorials because he’s like discern, recognizing things in society. How you can call something
that’s actually bad, you can call it good, you know. I like this. I like the thought of it.
History is filled with this. That’s why to study history and understand the world a little better
and to discern and not be foolish and go on your way down some, down a path and deny Christ.
Denying Christ.

But if I only know the ABC’s and I’m good. I’m like, leave me alone. I’m good. And the writer is
saying, no. You need to be exercised in it and learn it. vs. 14 says even those who by reason of
use have their senses exercised.
Now, here comes our definition of laziness or as I said hit the ceiling and I don’t learn Spanish as
an example or intellectually I’m bailing out. I’m not into, I’m not there. Socially. I’m not
spiritually. I am not. Okay. So it involves “avoiding effort seen in chronic procrastination. Messy
spaces.” Sounds like they’ve been in my office! “Endless scrolling. Well, indifference is a lack of
feeling or interest.”

There’s two words here. Laziness and indifference. They’re comparing these two words “shown
by blank expressions, zoning out, ignoring calls, feeling detached from outcomes, often blurring
into apathy where you just don’t care about problems whether they are good or bad and zoning
out regarding good, bad news. Laziness is about doing less. Indifference is about feeling less.”

“Biblical indifference appears as spiritual apathy. Laodiceans. Remember they were lukewarm.
Ignoring God’s call like Jonah and at the wedding banquet parable. Lack of compassion for the
needy like the rich man and Lazarus and James in his warning in his epistle. All condemned as a
failure to love God and neighbor, leading to spiritual danger and judgment. Emphasizing a
lukewarm, self-centered state instead of fervent faith in action.”

So, he’s not done with what he’s saying here. He’s saying in chapter 6:1 – I hope I haven’t lost
you. But keep listening. Even though you don’t know what’s going on right now. I hope you do.
Listen. You know what he’s saying? We’re going to look at the text in a minute.
He’s actually saying this. Go on beyond because Melchizedek is who we’re talking about and he
is so beyond us but then he has come into our world and he makes you vibrant, awake,
engaged. I’m exercised. I’m interested. I like people. I want to be around them. I want to listen.
I want to be educated. I want to learn. I want to embrace. I want to know the deep things of
God. I want Jesus in my life now. I want the anointing of God in my fellowship.

I want my children to know that I’m alive for the faith. I want my neighbors to know I’m alive.
Jesus is real in my life. I’m embracing him. I’m believing him. And he’s lighting me up. I’m like
alive to Christ. This is what he’s saying.
But then he says this. Chapter 6:1, Now, that could be a little bit like a little bit concerning. Like
what do you mean? Okay. This is it. You’re an unbeliever. Now, you become a believer and you
have the doctrines of Christ. The doctrines of Christ is how you got saved. But when you got
saved, you were a baby and you had milk and you went to Sunday school or you started to read
your Bible, but you got dull and bored with the whole thing. And the writer is saying, let’s leave
the ABC’s and let’s go on to like something that just blows our mind. The nature of and the
reality of the living God.

But he’s saying he’s giving a list here. Lok at – I have a slide of the list. Chapter 6:1. Let’s go on
to maturity. So the list that is – okay. That’s the list. Look at – I’m going to take a minute
because I don’t want to lose you but look at chapter 6:1. And keep that – oh, no. You got to do,
you got to do either one. Okay. Sorry. Let’s read it. let’s go on into perfection not laying again
the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms, the
laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment.

Well, aren’t those all good doctrines? They are. All those are good doctrines, aren’t they? Good
teachings. But I need a specific word for my trial. I need a word from the mouth of god because
man does not live by bread alone. He must live by words that come from God’s mouth for me.

Now, it says today if you will hear his voice, what does he have to say to me? What does he
have to say to us today? I need a fresh word. I need meat. I need to build my life in my trouble
on what he says. I need a word from God.

A man could be tempted to look at another woman. He was, he’s thinking about another
woman. He looks at another woman. He starts to think about the other woman. What does God
have to say to me about that? What does he have to say to me about that? Isn’t it Job 30:2? I
made a covenant with my eyes not to look on a maid, Job said. There’s a good word for me.
Don’t look. Don’t think about it. Don’t consider it. It’s off limits. Don’t do it.

So, I become skillful with the word of righteousness. I build my life on what he says. Well, that
example isn’t any of these words. Repentance and faith and baptism. I’m not saying they’re not
bad but the writer is saying they’re not enough. The writer is saying that these doctrines are
good, but they are like the ABC’s. You need to live, learn how to live and embrace and practice
in your heart what you believe and embrace it in your heart. It will change your life. That’s what
he’s saying.

Let’s read it. Chapter 6:3. But what will, what will God do? He will teach about Melchizedek in
chapter 7. He will teach about the high priest in chapters 8 and 9 and 10. He would, he has
more to say and more to say. You see, when you and I get serious with our faith, God gets
serious with us. If you play games with God, God will play games with you. It might not sound
exactly right but think about it.
Jacob was a deceiver and he played games and God played games with Jacob. Not in any evil
sense, but in the sense of drawing Jacob to himself. You want to be, you’re gonna get in
trouble, Jacob. And it’s from me. I will get you in trouble so that I can teach you that you have
to wrestle with me. You have to embrace me. You have to persuade me. Come on. Are you real
with me or not? Every woman knows that if a man is dating her, she wants to know, are you
serious or is this a game? Every child knows that his mom and dad, are they in this thing or not?
Everybody knows if a teacher at the school loves his subject or not. You know if a pastor is
serious about what he is saying or he is not. And you know a Christian is he serious about it or
not. Isn’t that good? All right.

Now, here comes the warning for chapter 6:4. Here it is. It’s shocking. It’s impossible for those
who were once enlightened. Now, because of time and because I tried to break this down and I
apologize if I go too fast. I don’t think I do, but I just put up the words for verses 4 and 5 of this
text.

Vs. 4-5. That means they are believers. These people are believers. It is impossible if they are
falling away when they have had this great gift of salvation and this great experience with God,
tasted of the power of God and the Spirit of God. So, the list is right up there now.
They have been enlightened. They have tasted. They are partakers. They’ve tasted the Word of
God. They tasted the power of the world to come. If they fall away to renew them again to
repentance. It’s impossible. That’s what the text is saying. It’s impossible.

It says there, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance in vs. 6. If they shall
fall away. And what’s the meaning? This – is it up on our diagram? They become believers. They
hit the ceiling. They’re like a babe. They don’t, they don’t know how to live really. They’re
unskillful in the word of righteousness. If they fall away, but they have tasted it. They have
experience.

But if they fall away, it’s saying it’s impossible for them to come back. Well, theologically,
there’s a lot of questions about this. It’s one of the most difficult texts in the Bible regarding
this salvation question because we know that Jonah fell away but God brought him back.
We know that David committed with Bathsheba and he was restored and forgiven. We know
that Peter denied the Lord three times and he’s restored. So, what does it mean? Can’t a
person fall away and be restored? Yes. We know that.

But then what is he saying here? He’s saying something that I have witnessed in my life as a
pastor for 50 years. I have seen people be brought to a point and they make a calculation and
they say, No. I’m not, I’m not going to. I’m like leave me alone. I’m going my way. I’ve seen it
and they’re gone and I never see them. I don’t mean me seeing them is the point, but I am
trying to say something that I have seen.

And that is there are people that when they fall away, they never are renewed again. They
never come back. And for me, that’s frightening because in my Christian life, there were times
when I was tempted to just open that door and sin. Like open that door and do that thing that I
know I shouldn’t do.

But one of the checks that I had and I have sinned, of course. I have sinned. We are sinners. But
I also have noticed that when I open a door, I don’t know where it’s going to take me. It might
affect me deeply. If I smoke marijuana, if I start to drink like starting to drink again. It’s been 50
years. I haven’t done it. Many alcoholics have told me, they said, I’m so glad I’m in a church that
does not drink, does not embrace it, does not, is not part of it. I need that. That’s what the guy
tells me. I mean, a few of them have said that to me through the years.

I open the door. Where does it take me? Like that game, Shoots and Ladders. I go down a bad
slide and I got to, you know. It’s not. I don’t know. This door can lead me to this door. This door
leads me to this door and here I am. How did I get here? Will I ever make it back? And many
times, people don’t come back. That changes their hearts. They get discouraged, guilty,
ashamed, defeated, depressed. And they don’t, they don’t know who God is. They don’t know
how great God is. They don’t know how gracious God is.

They don’t know who Melchizedek is. And the writer is saying, We got to move on out of the
ABC’s and live with God and become skillful in the Word and know who this priest is. Who is
this Christ? Well, his arm goes all the way down to hell. If I make my bed in hell, he is there and
his right hand will guide me. Psalm 139.

But how many Christians know the Word of God? How many Christians know the grace of God?
How many Christians know who their Messiah is? How many Christians realize how much
power they have? How many are in fellowship in the anointing and the power and the reality of
God? Yeah, that’s what he’s saying.

So, vs. 6. We’ll finish up here. They are gone. They are gone. They crucify to themselves the Son
of God afresh and put him to an open shame. I don’t want you to think you are gone. Just let
God love you. This is the God of all grace. This is the God that restores us. But get beyond
ourselves and learn it.

The Puritans, I’ll read one piece. It says, “Puritan hard work refers to the deep, diligent, and
often difficult spiritual labor of guarding, governing, tending to one’s inner life, affections,
thoughts, motivations to align with God’s will, seeing it as crucial for genuine faith. Contrasting
with mere outward religious duty. Key aspects include understanding the heart’s deep
sinfulness, focusing on internal purity and applying biblical truth to internal struggles.” I like it.
So, there’s a metaphor for this good ground and fruitful ground versus barren ground in vs. 7
and 8.

But in vs. 9, and this is the end. But beloved – that means that they’re Christians. But beloved,
though I’m talking this way to you, I am persuaded better things of you. Vs. 9. Though this is a
tough message for you to hear, I’m telling you the truth of it. Though we’re speaking this way, I
believe better things of you that you are maturing. You’re using the tools. You’re learning how
to be engaged. You’re learning how to hear from God. You’re learning how to walk in faith.
You’re learning how to be Spirit filled. You’re learning how to make tough decisions.

You’re learning about suffering. You’re learning about going through trials, a bad marriage,
problems with your children, a broken heart because your son is in prison, or you lost your son
in a murder on the streets of Baltimore or wherever, or some other heartbreaking thing.

You are learning how to live with God who loves you, who came and dwells in us and teaches us
how to live. Wow. Some of you might be alone at Christmas time but you can do well. God is
with you. He has a plan for your life. Some of you might be very disappointed in life. That’s
okay. Read about Abraham. God is with you and he’s for you. And get beyond the ABC’s of the
Christian life and embrace what God says and trust him and he will show you who he is and
how much he is for you. Okay. Amen. Would you pray with me? (Prayer).

 

Please enjoy these sermon notes from the messages preached at Greater Grace Church in Baltimore. These notes are provided to aid in your study and understanding of the Word. Note that these notes do not represent complete, word-for-word transcriptions. Also, they may contain omissions as well as some errors in spelling and structure, etc., as we attempt to provide them as soon as possible. Our hope is that these notes serve as a way to help you search and connect with messages on related subjects and passages. Thank you for your interest in the ministry of Greater Grace.